Can Cobalt Blue Be Used for Ultramarine Blue

Is there really that much difference between Cobalt blue and Ultramarine?

This topic has 29 replies, 17 voices, and was last updated 9 years, 1 month ago by Meggs, Tweed Heads South, NSW. Australia.

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May 16, 2013 at 11:48 pm #990918

When I see Cobalt Blue and French Ultramarine side by side in swatches, I don't see much difference except that Ultramarine may be a teensy weensy bit warmer and granulates more. Cobalt seems to be a tad weaker, but I think the difference between the two is really subtle. I've seen this in both my Winsor & Newton pans and in my Daniel Smith tube paints. On my limited palette, I'm considering ditching Ultramarine and having cobalt and indanthrone blue instead. Does anyone else feel like the difference between the two paints is marginal? What's the benefit of having both?

May 17, 2013 at 12:33 am #1187677

I have both, as do many painters. I favor Ultramarine (I have two-three), but I could not do without my Cobalt Blue…to my eye, its a completely different color and it acts and reacts very differently. Its definitely the reaction to adding a drop of water that I love about Cobalts. Use whichever colors pleases= your eye, but, I promise you, you will also begin to use Ultramarine, so do not "dump" it! Put it on "hold" for awhile.

Margarete

Three Ultramarines?! One very very warm, one "regular," and one that barely granulates.

When he, the Spirit of truth is come...he will be your Guide... Holy Bible (Old and New Testament)
Under the Concrete are Flowers Yet to be Born...from a Chilean Poem

If you don't see a difference, then what makes the most sense is to buy the cheapest (which is generally not Cobalt Blue). Even ignoring price, I prefer French Ultramarine over Cobalt Blue by quite a wide margin. However, you palette, your approach, your taste – if you are going to have an Indanthrone Blue, you might find the Ultramarine the more expendable of the two.

I have noticed that the difference between Ultramarine and Cobalt blue can vary across brands. I have WN Ultramarine and Cobalt and find them to be quite different. However I also have Schmincke Ultramarine and Cobalt and find it impossible to tell the difference between the two when painted out in swatches.

Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be evil.
Rebecca ~ http://artdragon86.wordpress.com/

I'll certainly keep my tube of it, Margarete! It's definitely not getting "dumped", I meant I will not keep it in my limited palette – the bigger palette will still have it. I do use both, don't get me wrong, but I was just wondering if others saw as little difference between the two as I did.

I've noticed my Rembrandt cobalt and ultramarine are the same pigment, so almost identical in hue, with ultramarine being only a bit warmer and deeper. But my W&N French ultramarine is much warmer.

I'm also considering adding indathrene blue to my palette for deeper greens than what I'm currently able to make. So far I haven't needed it; FUB and peacock have been enough. But I like dark, dark colors so the debate in my head goes on.

Problem is, it's just too easy to start adding colors right and left, and then rarely -or never- really use them. I've stripped my palette to the bone, and fully realize that once I'm in the middle of a work, I really just don't miss what I don't have.

-DragonLady

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They are not very different in hue, but very different in characteristic… Ultramarine is more useful in general, but there are applications where cobalt blue works better… for portrait mixtures, cobalt is more delicate, lifts more easily, glazes better; it also produces brighter greens. Cobalt neutralizes very well with cadmium orange.

I find W&N Cobalt Blue very weak.

Doug

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Absolutely use the best quality Cobalt, VERY pricey but worth it for primary choice. I also use the best quality Ultramarine, but it is way less pricey.

Ah ha, so you love darks…in my little bitty bag of tricks is darkening greens…using colors most favored by many (i.e. Winsor & Newton – but this will work with most brands. To darken Hooker's Green or Sap Green: Use Ultramarine Blue + Hooker's (or Sap) plus a touch of Payne's Gray. The more dense the Payne's Gray, the darker it becomes.

One can also use just UMB plus Hooker's (or Sap)…that will give a gentler green, yet darker green. I personally use a regular UMB plus Viridian to get the sweetest looking "fantasy" blue-green color.

Margarete

I

When he, the Spirit of truth is come...he will be your Guide... Holy Bible (Old and New Testament)
Under the Concrete are Flowers Yet to be Born...from a Chilean Poem

Ah ha, so you love darks…in my little bitty bag of tricks is darkening greens…using colors most favored by many (i.e. Winsor & Newton – but this will work with most brands. To darken Hooker's Green or Sap Green: Use Ultramarine Blue + Hooker's (or Sap) plus a touch of Payne's Gray. The more dense the Payne's Gray, the darker it becomes.

One can also use just UMB plus Hooker's (or Sap)…that will give a gentler green, yet darker green. I personally use a regular UMB plus Viridian to get the sweetest looking "fantasy" blue-green color.

I have been cutting down my palette so the only green I have in my 'travel' palette now is phthalo green (yellow shade). I find I can darken it quite nicely just with Paynes Grey if I want a cold green, or with Burnt Umber if I want a warmer dark green. For a lighter green I go with Burnt Sienna or either of my yellows. I love to mix phthalo green and phthalo blue for a gorgeous turquoise.

As for Cobalt vs. Ultramarine, I find that I use my Cobalt mainly just for skies, while Ultramarine seems to be my 'mixer' colour, for darkening my browns or greens. Both blues make lovely (but slightly different) violets, though I also like using phthalo or Cerulean blue (this is one part of my palette-trimming exercise that is giving me trouble… I have SO many blues but I love all of them and don't want to let any of them go :evil:)

Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be evil.
Rebecca ~ http://artdragon86.wordpress.com/

I agree with you, Rebecca, on blues being tough to cut from the palette! They really are useful, though – most things in nature have blue in them, or at least require a mix of blue to get the right color. A range of blues gives you greens, purples, wide ranges of neutrals, etc. My normal palette has 6 blues (if you count cobalt teal as a blue), and my limited 12 color palette has 4.

I, too have pthalo green as my limited palette green now. It used to be perylene green, but since finding that pthalo green and perylene maroon give me the that same color, I'm happy as can be. Pthalo green really is a useful mixer. And pthalo blue + green is so pretty.:)

They are not very different in hue, but very different in characteristic… Ultramarine is more useful in general, but there are applications where cobalt blue works better… for portrait mixtures, cobalt is more delicate, lifts more easily, glazes better; it also produces brighter greens. Cobalt neutralizes very well with cadmium orange.

You've touched on exactly what was puzzling me – the hues looked so similar to me that I was wondering if others thought so, too. The handling properties are different, and I personally prefer cobalt for that reason, but the hue was specifically what I was referring to.

I'm also considering adding indathrene blue to my palette for deeper greens than what I'm currently able to make. So far I haven't needed it; FUB and peacock have been enough. But I like dark, dark colors so the debate in my head goes on.

I recently added it to my palette, and love it. It's great for deep darks, makes a beautiful indigo, and because it's non-granulating I really like it for mixes. I think you should add it. It's just one little tube.

My ultramarine blue is definitely more purple and dark than my cobalt blue. My cobalt is a bright pure blue.

I use ultramarine more than cobalt partly because it's so much cheaper, partly because it looks good in mixes for plant colors in nature – soft greens, purple flowers. Cobalt feels better for really pure intense blues and rich creamy neutrals.

There are not2 types of ultramarine blue one is warmer the other has a green bias different brands call them by different names like ultramarine and ultramarine finest or one light one dark ,for me they are different to the original cobalt.
Querin
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